Curse

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igedit

When everyone flocks to a certain build, it means there is imbalance.

Where do you think all the hate for the W/Mo comes from? And it aint got anything to do with imbalance.

Robos Stavanis · Aug 25, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31

That is not exactly true. I have seen many strange things happen in this game. Folks tend to jump on the bandwagon, even if the price of admitance is high, just because they want to be a part of the new build of the moment. Monk runes are expensive because there are so many wanna be's. Does not mean that they all are good, bad, or indifferent. I would wagger if someone started a rumor that a certain build was better than the 105, and other s perpetuated this rumor, you would see a mad rush of people jumping on acquiring the items needed to make this fake build work.

Diplo · Aug 25, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

You bitch and moan about things that don't have anything to do with you...it doesn't have an bearing on your game or how you play it.

So presumably people using bots in PvE doesn't bother you, either? After all it doesn't effect you. You can justify any number of cheats using that kind of warped logic.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I'm not trolling...I'm asking you to make a halfway decent argument as to how it effects you...but you'd rather call it trolling than make an attempt because the fact of it is that it doesn't effect you.

Sigh, troll some more, in case you dont know, one definition of trolling is following someone around on the board constantly trying flame, or start verbal hostility. You're guilty, might as well just be proud of it.

First, Halfway decent arguement is a subjective term. What I say is an excellent arugement you will say is invalid, and vice versa.

Second, I'm not going to argue about how it effects me because I reject the notion that it has to effect me to be an abuse. I've said this to you before. And I'm telling you now to never expect me to argue how this effects me because it would validate the very idea that it has to effect someone else to be an abuse, which I reject entirely.

Find something new to troll me about.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

So presumably people using bots in PvE doesn't bother you, either? After all it doesn't effect you. You can justify any number of cheats using that kind of warped logic.

no...I don't care in the least if you want to use a bot. it doesn't effect me

Theos · Aug 25, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Well with the change to NR that is too come soon, I am pretty sure with a little togling of the build Monks will be able to solo further in UW. Perhaps I am mistaken but take OoB for instance and you will counter the degen that NR will cause to your energy. Perhaps someone could show me if this was impossible, but from the way I look at it now, Monks have even more terrain open to them for farming.

i2DreamK · Aug 25, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

It goes like this: If you think it's overpowered, then make your own monk to do it. . .I mean really, it takes what 2 days for level 20?

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Sigh, troll some more, in case you dont know, one definition of trolling is following someone around on the board constantly trying flame, or start verbal hostility. You're guilty, might as well just be proud of it.

First, Halfway decent arguement is a subjective term. What I say is an excellent arugement you will say is invalid, and vice versa.

Second, I'm not going to argue about how it effects me because I reject the notion that it has to effect me to be an abuse. I've said this to you before. And I'm telling you now to never expect me to argue how this effects me because it would validate the very idea that it has to effect someone else to be an abuse, which I reject entirely.

Find something new to troll me about.

1) I have no idea who you are or even remotely remember conversing with you in the past...ever

2) if it doesn't effect you it shouldn't matter. It in no way changes the way you play the game. It's bitching to hear yourself bitch. If it were causing some sort of trouble for you ingame then you'd have every right to bitch about it(and I'd back you and say that it needed to be nerfed)...but it doesn't

Theos · Aug 25, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by i2DreamK

It goes like this: If you think it's overpowered, then make your own monk to do it. . .I mean really, it takes what 2 days for level 20?

WTF? We don't do it becuase its overpowered, get your head out of D2. This isn't even an argument, its just a shallow "we can do it, join us" idea that makes me mad.

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Also, I'm going to point out a few flaws in both sides of the arguements. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but it seems to be repeated so bloody often.

"ArenaNet never intended it to be this way and it's an exploit"

For one, you don't know what they intend. And two, if it was an actual exploit, it would have been fixed within hours. Augury Rock for example.

"Let us play the way we want to"

This isn't really a counter arguement, it's more along the lines of "Don't take my candy away from me!" while you're ignoring your dentist trying to get those cavities out.

"Too many people are using it"

Well too many people are using Mo/Me's, W/Mo's and E/Mo's. 36 different class combinations and too many people are playing the same thing as there's lots of players in the game. LETS NERF THEM ALL!

"Who cares if it's an exploit? It's not effecting you"

Yeah well, that exploit in Augury Rock didn't effect me either.

"ArenaNet didn't intend for something to be overpowered and invincible"

Of course they didn't. I fail to see how this is invincible though, or overpowered.

I'd say more on the anti nerfers, but they seem to be repeating themselves with less varied 'arguements'. I really don't see an arguement yet on one side or another that holds any water or logic.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

thank you sekkira for pointing out that it's not an exploit...i've grown tired of doing that myself.

Theos · Aug 25, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

thank you sekkira for pointing out that it's not an exploit...i've grown tired of doing that myself.

I don't think he pointed that out at all. Looks more like he solidly showed the flaws in both arguments while mainting no real bias to either view.

Rusch Vokirk · Aug 25, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

This has happened on almost a regular basis since GW launched. Someone discovers a new build. Someone counters the aforementioned new build. Everyone uses the counter build. GW is a good thing, because ANet is allowing players to be smart, and make the game for themselves. I use a W/Mo, does that mean I'm a noob, or I follow trends? No, chances are, I use my character differently in PvP than half the people who play W/Mo. With the huge amount of skills, I doubt it will be long before somebody finds a new way to solo UW. So really, rather than complain about it, it seems a much better strategy to try to find a new UW build. As soon as you start crying nerf on classes, the game becomes no different than any MMO on the market. If you don't believe me, just look at Star Wars Galaxies.

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Warrior/Monks are fun to play. I used one for a bit and had a nice time soloing through ascalon and having a general kick ass time.

Silmor · Aug 25, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

1. So following this argument, the rich get richer.
2. There's people liberally using 105 monks (and fiercely defending them) who had an incredible amount of trouble with missions like Thirsty River or Thunderhead Keep (this is judging from their own forum posts just before the 105 monk became popular - won't name names, but their desperate pleading posts are out there). So I'm not buying the idea that they take any skill, since it's clear even someone who can't face the simple challenges of PvE missions has no trouble using them.
3. It's rather upsetting how this argument is still used after it's been refuted so thoroughly. What happened two weeks ago? The traders got updated to give fair prices for items. What was causing the high ecto price before that? The fact that nobody in their right mind sold the ectoplasm to the trader. Yet the 105 monks are lording ArenaNet's change to the trader as their own prowess. Anyway, check the 'farming does not cause inflation' thread for much more eloquent refutals to this.
4. This is a solo build that doesn't really play nice with other people along (they'd have to stay way, way back for safety), so I can't see how it can -not- negatively influence teamwork. I've seen people completely unfamiliar with the game beg around for the -50 health icon, people clueless enough to think that the monk will grant them utter invincibility throughout the board, who clearly didn't play through the game yet. You could say they are intending to farm with this build for cash like everyone else, but that's not out of boredom or anything - it's because they think wealth is the most important thing in the game, because their R/Mo isn't generating squat in gold, and they think they need that storm bow. GW players simply aren't responsible enough for a build like this to be possible.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

1) I have no idea who you are or even remotely remember conversing with you in the past...ever

ah, indeed my mistake ) I had you confused with another of my many "fans".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

if it doesn't effect you it shouldn't matter. It in no way changes the way you play the game. It's bitching to hear yourself bitch. If it were causing some sort of trouble for you ingame then you'd have every right to bitch about it(and I'd back you and say that it needed to be nerfed)...but it doesn't

Yes youve said this quite a few times, and I still disagree that "who an abuse effects" determines wether or not it is an abuse and needs fixing. I'm not going to debate this with you.

I dunno that I agree with the idea that anet not getting around to fixing protbond yet means its not an abuse. Perhaps they are tied up in the new update. Perhaps they are tryin to address an even deeper root case than the fact that protbond needs fixing. Protbond's abusability is the root of the 105 build, but the root of the intense desire to solo is greed, which means that Anet should make it more profitable to group then to solo, to promote grouping. Perhaps they are doing that before they take away the monkroaches lollypop.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

1. So following this argument, the rich get richer.

that's a fact of life....I see no reason that we run the GW economy as a comunist entity. But that's neither here nor there...the rich get richer because they the money to invest in the things that bring wealth...that's the way it is/was/always will be.

Quote:

2. There's people liberally using 105 monks (and fiercely defending them) who had an incredible amount of trouble with missions like Thirsty River or Thunderhead Keep (this is judging from their own forum posts just before the 105 monk became popular - won't name names, but their desperate pleading posts are out there). So I'm not buying the idea that they take any skill, since it's clear even someone who can't face the simple challenges of PvE missions has no trouble using them.

I had to do Thunderhead Keep 5 times to get through it....you know as well as I do that Thunderhead Keep is a noob trap as well as the most pivotal mission in regards to player teamwork and skill. Basing a single players skill on how effectively they can get random noobs to work together isn't the greatest idea.

Quote:

3. It's rather upsetting how this argument is still used after it's been refuted so thoroughly. What happened two weeks ago? The traders got updated to give fair prices for items. What was causing the high ecto price before that? The fact that nobody in their right mind sold the ectoplasm to the trader. Yet the 105 monks are lording ArenaNet's change to the trader as their own prowess. Anyway, check the 'farming does not cause inflation' thread for much more eloquent refutals to this.

The idea that solo monks (or any solo player for that matter) is changing the economy is proposterous. There is no active supply/demand system...there never was.

Quote:

4. This is a solo build that doesn't really play nice with other people along (they'd have to stay way, way back for safety), so I can't see how it can -not- negatively influence teamwork. I've seen people completely unfamiliar with the game beg around for the -50 health icon, people clueless enough to think that the monk will grant them utter invincibility throughout the board, who clearly didn't play through the game yet. You could say they are intending to farm with this build for cash like everyone else, but that's not out of boredom or anything - it's because they think wealth is the most important thing in the game, because their R/Mo isn't generating squat in gold, and they think they need that storm bow. GW players simply aren't responsible enough for a build like this to be possible.

Anyone that uses this build outside of solo instances obviously doesn't know what they are doing. This build only works when you are by yourself or with a team looking to have you tank. Otherwise it's useless.

Elistan: Promoting grouping would be the best step for everyone and absolutely the best fix to the game. I, however, would still play the majority of the quests solo...

Van the Warrior · Aug 25, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

In conclusion, I'm firmly convinced that most of this acid criticism comes from people who are very bad at the game or at farming in general, and bash on others for the sake of it. This game is open enough to be played and enjoyed in radically different ways, invoking the nerf bat over anything other people do and you can't do is silly.

amen way to point this out

Sekkira · Aug 25, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

4. This is a solo build that doesn't really play nice with other people along (they'd have to stay way, way back for safety), so I can't see how it can -not- negatively influence teamwork. I've seen people completely unfamiliar with the game beg around for the -50 health icon, people clueless enough to think that the monk will grant them utter invincibility throughout the board, who clearly didn't play through the game yet. You could say they are intending to farm with this build for cash like everyone else, but that's not out of boredom or anything - it's because they think wealth is the most important thing in the game, because their R/Mo isn't generating squat in gold, and they think they need that storm bow. GW players simply aren't responsible enough for a build like this to be possible.

That reminds me of something else. I've encountered people in Ice Caves of Sorrow at level 14, they didn't even know what the desert was. I've encountered people in the desert who firmly believed that the only way to get around was running, fighting through is unheard of and completely impossible. I have seen one of my own guildmates (unfortunately) rushed through to Gates Of Kryta without knowing what is going on. I have shown them the right way but it doesn't solve the problem at hand.

Yes, you guessed it, Runners. I can understand and tolerate people wanting to get through the game after being through it once before as it is 'tedious' (although I disagree with the concept. How do you learn to manage a team as a healer when your monk is rushed through? How to you learn how to effectively learn skills, how to go about using them and what situations they'd be effective in when your mesmer is run to Droknar's?). These people are ruining the game for the new players. There is so much of it, that any outpost you step into, you will find people offering to run to whatever the next place is for such and such amount of money.

The newbies feel that the only way to get places is being rushed, and they never learn anything by doing so other than money will get you to the next place in the game. And then it cycles back to us and you get these newbies in the Desert, Southern Shiverpeaks, Ring of Fire clogging things up and making normally easy missions harder than they should be because they don't have any idea on how to play the game.

I mean seriously? Everyone is bitching about this 105 build (which I use myself and do not want to see it nerfed personally but try to keep that out of arguements defending it) ruining the game. It's causing very little impact compared to this influx of runners and runnees.

Theos · Aug 25, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van the Warrior

amen way to point this out

Somehow I doubt that this is the case. Most if not all of us can and do farm well. We simply don't jump on a bandwagon full of idiots who truly don't know how to farm.

The way the actual things works is this:
Thos who can't let go of their cash cow suck at farming and/or much of the game ingeneral. These people are unable to farm with any other character as it is far to difficult than mashing buttons and are incapable of letting go of their get rich quick build.